Ok, so I met another pinyin-only learner today and I've finally had it. I'm making a post about it!
I'm not going to go over all of the reasons why learning Mandarin with pinyin only is a bad idea, but I'm going to look at one reason in particular today: Pinyin ambiguity.
So you think you can learn Mandarin by only learning the spoken language and getting by with just pinyin? Ok, so let's try it.
What does "shi" mean? ......
......
......
Go ahead, take your time. CNS11643 shows 193 different characters for the pinyin combination "shi".
Ok, so with single characters, it's not possible. Let's try something else...
"Wo de niao shi lüse de."※
How about this one? What does this translate to? Could it be 我的鳥是綠色的, "My bird is green" or could it be 我的尿是綠色的, "My urine is green"? We don't know. There is no way to tell.
Does "hanyu" mean "the Chinese language"(漢語) or "the Korean language"(韓語)?
Is "lianxi" 練習、聯繫、連繫、or 憐惜?
Does "mao" mean "cat"(貓) or "hair/fur"(毛)?
Does "gaochao" mean "excellent"(高超) or "orgasm"(高潮)? (O_o)
Does "yinhe" mean "The Milky Way"(銀河) or "clitoris"(陰核)? (囧)
The tones change the meanings of these words. There are so many of these that I can't even begin to count them. If you know any good ones please leave a comment and I may add it to the list :)
Using pinyin to type in Mandarin is ambiguous and leads to mistakes and misunderstandings. Not only that, but you lose out on all of the culture and understanding of the language. Learning Chinese characters is not hard unless you make it hard.
......plus if you learn them, you'll be regarded as a genius in the eyes of most East Asians. Everyone loves attention :)
※ You'll probably see the "ü" written as "v" or simply "u" by most people.
I think I'll try continuing the trend you've started: there's always the classic "qingwen," for which I'll leave the translation up to you!
ReplyDeleteGood to see you posting again. À bientôt, mon ami de l'internet !
As a pinyin only learner i'm going to counter your argument with some points of my own.
ReplyDelete- Chinese people learn with pinyin first. So i'm doing the same and i may choose to learn characters at a later stage.
- I would probably need to more than double the amount of time spent on learning mandarin with characters, and almost all learning material use pinyin.
English words also have multiple meanings. The word with the most definitions is SET with apparently 464 definitions and there are many more.
You said what does "shi" mean. well there are ways to add the tone marks ons which will narrow down the result and with context with the rest of the pinyin i can't see a problem.
Jason
My response to you, Jason, is simple. You are using what was a failed attempt to reduce the Chinese writing system to an alphabet. Moreover, using any romanization system is using assumptions. You are assuming everything you read. Without character (even if there IS a tone) you are assuming you know the meaning behind the sound.
ReplyDelete"...and almost all learning material use pinyin." Ok, so you will be able to learn the language to not be able to use it. You'll only be able to read learning materials, haha.
Also, even IF you specify the tone, there are enough homophones to leave you with the same problem as before. Reducing 200 to 50 still leaves you with 50 different words. You can never be sure of the meaning, you can only guess.
So enjoy guessing what other learners write and having no clue what natives write. But hey, at least you can speak it, right?
That makes sense, I also learn with only pin yin, but because of this post I've changed my ways. I read jasons comment and I know what he means, but I also have some thoughts of my own that may counter what you said jason.
ReplyDeleteThe chinese learn pinyin first.... Do they? Do they really? I guess, if you're saying they don't know any signs at all, they weren't raised around characters, everything they did as a child of course had chinese characters in all. The shows they watched as well. We can say they even speak chinese before they even go to school, just like we speak english. They learn the pin yin first because the pin yin is OF COURSE what they DON'T know. And how long do they spend on that even, since you're on their tracks, follow what they do COMPLETELY stop using pin yin as soon as you learned it because you already know the charact--- oh.. Oh yeah... Nvm... You don't know them... Ah well.....So they learn pin yin first, then use chinese the whole way, unless you were raised in china, pin yin isn't the way to go. Because they learn it and move on.
Double the time to learn with characters? Naah.
1+1 always equaled 2 in my book. You're going to learn with with pin yin now and learn the characters later- still get to your goal. Learn with characters and pin yin now - still get to your goal. Still got to your goal on time I don't see the differenc---- wait...if you learned characters at the same time as pin yin... Would the different words written the same with even THE SAME EXACT TONE bother you because you know the different characters? Woah... Maybe 1+1 doesn't even equal 2.... Maybe with characters... It equals less time spent... Sickness...you said you couldn't see the problem.... I showed it to you.
MessiahConan: That's actually not true. The Chinese still use pinyin all the time. They use it to type and to write out/learn 漢字 pronunciations. However, Hanyu Pinyin was not always in place. It was invented at the beginning of the cultural revolution for the simplification process that destroyed (in my opinion) much of the culture embedded in the Chinese writing system. However, before the 1950s, Zhuyin Fuhao (Bopomofo) was used as the phonetic representation of the Chinese language for about 40 years. Before that they only had rhyme charts.
ReplyDeleteSo it is helpful for learning how to pronounce words, and it is an efficient method of typing Chinese. However, it should not be used as a replacement for actual Chinese writing.
Another little tidbit, 注音符號(Annotated symbols) was renamed from 注音字母(Annotated alphabet) because they did not want people to believe it was an alphabet separate from Chinese characters.
Jason: It may seem like more work to you, but it really does help you understand the language and it speeds your learning in the end.
Hi
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with what you mentioned here. Pinyin is an easy way to learn Mandarin, but easy not equal to the best, and usually it has a lot of problems if we take the easy way to start with.
Your examples are very funny:) Thank you for the info!
You assert that pinyin may be ambiguous, even with the tones indicated.
ReplyDeleteThat makes perfect sense to me -- because, as you mention, there are a great many homonyms.
But does your statement not imply that Chinese text, if only read aloud, so that the listener has no access to the characters, might be equally ambiguous?
My husband was from Taiwan and Mandarin was his first language. Neither he nor his brothers learned with Pinyin. In fact, my husband is very against Pinyin. It was later introduced in the school systems in Taiwan after he already left. His reasoning was pretty much the stuff the OP stated.
ReplyDelete